It feels like open season during the election season.
No matter what side of the line you’re on talking about politics right now is heated and intense.
Is there a way to engage in respectful dialogue right now?
Dr. Clara Doctolero joins the Think Tank to help us survive the election season and beyond without ruining our professional and personal relationships.
Audrea Fink:
It feels like open season during the election season. No matter what side of the line you’re on, talking about politics right now is heated and intense. Is there a way to engage in respectful dialogue right now?
Hi, this is Audrea Fink here with Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris and Julie Holton. We are your Think Tank of Three. Our guest today is Dr. Clara Doctolero. We are talking about surviving an election season and really the political discussion in general, where discussion of all things political can be so polarizing at work and at home. We’re so excited to have you here, especially with your background.
Dr. Clara Doctolero is a doctor in psychology. She has up to 20 years of extensive experience with coaching and evidence-based skills at the Seattle Psych Studio. Her most recent appointment is as founder and executive coach at EI Resources, LLC, EI equaling emotional intelligence.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
Dr. Doctolero is formally trained and dialectical behavioral therapy, DBT, and has worked with Dr. Marsha Linehan, the developer of DBT. She’s also been gracious enough to let us call her Dr. Clara. She lectures and supervises DBT graduate students at the University of Washington.
Julie Holton:
Clara also has a background in cognitive behavior therapy, short-term and long-term psychotherapy, mindfulness, and relaxation training, which, as you know, if you listen to us, we could use a lot of around here over at Think Tank of Three. From her DBT work, the emergence of EI Resources originated. ER Resources believes that emotional intelligence skills should be taught early in life. It aims to increase emotional intelligence in our schools and workplaces, especially with people who are in leadership roles. EI Resources also offers individual coaching and in-person presentations. Clara, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.
Clara Doctolero:
Thank you for having me. I’m a bit starstruck since I’ve been a fan of Think Tank of Three for a while.
Audrea Fink:
I’m really excited about this topic because I am feeling rather exhausted from the nonstop political discussion and the extreme feelings on both sides. But before we dig into this, it would be helpful if you could just give us a brief overview of what DBT is and why you use it.
Clara Doctolero:
DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy, started in the ’90s, 1990s, with Marsha Linehan out of University of Washington. It has been one of the frontline treatments for things that are very challenging issues, suicidal ideation, suicidal behaviors, nonsuicidal self-injury, or cutting, as we may be more familiar with. Also treats anxiety, depression, substance use, and some eating disorders.
DBT, in a nutshell, is a skills-based approach. There are about 30 to 40 different skills that I teach my clients to use independently. I believe that DBT is a very empowering type of treatment in which my goal is that my clients need me less and less, that I’ve taught them well enough to utilize these skills to improve their lives and to reach their goals.
Audrea Fink:
Awesome. Given this current political climate, it feels like no matter what side you’re on, you’re under attack. I know that you have some history with that. You work with individuals who have different political opinions, but then you also had a household, when you were a child, that had pretty extreme sides.
Clara Doctolero:
Yes, I do believe that I am paying tribute to my stepfather who, unfortunately, passed away two years ago. Entered my life at age 11 and was a very different human from the norm of my peers and my family. My stepfather was not only unapologetic for who he is as his person, but profoundly unapologetic for his political views as well.
I learned a lot about myself through the relationship over the years. I went from, as a child, being open to his views, adopting his views, as a teenager and young adult to have my own views, and solidifying my own views, which are vastly different from his, and then judging his views, judging him as a person, to not speaking at times, not speaking about politics for sure, to radically accepting things I can’t change.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
You ran this gamut.
Audrea Fink:
I feel like there’s a lot of times if I’m just like, “I can’t do this,” I’ll just be quiet. People will have opinions I don’t agree with, and I’m just like …
Clara Doctolero:
Years ago, I had a talk with myself and I had to make a decision. What do I want from this relationship? Where are my values here? In this case, he’s my mother’s husband. I decided that I wanted to value and execute harmony. This was a relationship I did want to keep.
The interesting part about it is though we had polar views, he was the kindest man and one of the kindest men that I’ve known to date. Very confusing. Part of what I’ve learned in turn, that what he had offered me was the opportunity to learn about being uncomfortable and that my brain … Things don’t fall into black and white. As humans, we want things to fall easily and packaged nicely. This relationship was not that.
Julie Holton:
This rings so true for me. I know even for myself, I’m hearing your words and I’m thinking, “Wow! She’s talking about me.” I think for many of our listeners when we have such different views from family members, it really causes a lot of confusion, as you said. At times, I know we’ve even talked in private conversations with Think Tank of Three about how can two people hear the same thing, look at the same newspaper article, whatever that might be and have two totally different understandings of it.
But really, when we look at our values … I look at my own father who has very different political viewpoints than I do, but when you look at our values, our values are very similar. We have so much more in common than you would think based on the things that we say politically. I’m so glad that you’re here to talk about this because, gosh, ladies. Where do we dive in? How do we dissect this?
Audrea Fink:
I know. As you were saying that, Julie, I was just thinking so frequently my father and I also have pretty different viewpoints. I’ve noticed that even though we want to take radically different paths sometimes, we actually want the same outcome.
Julie Holton:
Yes.
Audrea Fink:
We want good things for our country. We want good things for our family and our friends. We want good things for the economy. We want the same things. We just take different paths. Sometimes I can be okay with that and sometimes I’m like, “You’re wrong. Obviously, I’m right.”
How do we maintain or grow those relationships, whether they’d be personal, like your father, or professional? My boss and I have different political views. We don’t talk about it very often, but I know there are things we disagreed on in the past. How do you build those relationships, grow them, maintain them when you’re on the other side of issues?
Clara Doctolero:
Here’s what I hinge off of. I feel as though that I do DBT, I’ve got to walk my talk in DBT. The heart of DBT is the dialectics, dialectical behavioral therapy. What we mean by dialectics is there’s truth on both ends of the pole. Even though it’s a kernel of truth, there is still a truth that does exist, that offers you not only a black and white picture, but there is a gray area, there’s a middle path. I do think within our relationships, we all have different middle paths with the individual.
This is a story between me and my stepfather. I have goals that are maybe very different from this than a coworker. I also may have different goals and values perhaps with a friend. I’ve had clients who’ve had to divorce their friends during this season, and I understand that. I understand that that’s the right choice for that individual. I think that that’s the place where you have to ask and have conversations with yourself. What’s wise here? What upsets me? Is this a relationship I want to keep? What’s my goal here? What are my values?
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
That touches so much for me because, unlike you three, I actually line up pretty much in line with my parents. But one of my mother’s closest nieces, I mean they’re the best of friends, but she specifically does not talk politics with her because they’re on completely polar opposites of the political spectrum, which blows my mother’s mind.
And so, I’ve asked her, “Well, how do you even have a … ” She goes, “We just don’t.” She goes, “She’ll say something and I will simply move to another topic. I will either say, ‘That’s interesting,’ and then I move it on.” She goes, “We don’t have the discussion,” which makes me impressed with how my mother handles that because I will get down [inaudible 00:10:00].
For me, politics is very personal, and I know that isn’t for everyone. Is it possible to find that common ground when starting from completely opposite spaces? I mean, as I said, my mom just shifts to the left or shifts to the right, doesn’t even discuss it, which I’m not 100% certain that that’s healthy, but then again maybe it is.
Clara Doctolero:
I do think that we’re in the same storm, different boats and that different people have different purposes perhaps in our lives, and that in the world of politics, in a situation like my stepfather and myself, I like to use the words mystery, confusion, and curiosity.
For me, what I fueled off of was learning, and that was my goal was I wanted to understand. I wanted to learn to be curious. I had to make lemonade out of lemons. Ron, my stepfather, and from a previous podcast, I’ve learned that you guys had mentioned that he happened for me, not to me, as mentioned in one of your previous podcasts.
So the lemonade is I’m not afraid to have these conversations with like-minded individuals as my stepfather. I think it opened my mind to understand that people aren’t so black and white and that they aren’t so black and white in my world, too. I have this friend for this purpose. I have this conversation for these purposes. I go to these support groups for these goals as well, and one person can’t be my end-all. That, unfortunately, also means with politics as well.
I think what also I needed to learn was, in addition to being curious and confused, I had to learn how to manage my hurt with that as well. There’s a degree of grief, I think, that we experience when somebody has a polar opinion than us because we feel as though that because he’s a parental figure, at least in my world, why don’t you understand? Why don’t we align? There’s some sadness there, I think, honestly, some healthy sadness and in a way that it moves us towards acceptance.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
I get having differing opinions. I even get you’re trying to reach the same goal, you’re just trying to get there from a different perspective. I get that. But what happens when what they believe is the kernel of truth? You discussed the kernel of truth. What happens when the person you are speaking of and their kernel of truth flat out isn’t true? When someone says Barack Obama is not an American citizen, I don’t know where to go from there because that’s a flat out lie.
Clara Doctolero:
You’re talking about my life since I was 11 years old. It’s not perfect. These are curvy, sharp roads, and at the end of the day, I want to feel good about myself. At the end of the day, I’m not changing my stepfather’s mind, and vice-versa. He’s not changing mine either, let’s be clear. I’m pretty solid on where I stand.
There are times where, again, I don’t speak to him, and I’m okay with that. I was okay with that at those times. There are times where we don’t speak about politics. I’m okay with that, too. I feel as though that it’s more of a commitment and a journey of this relationship and, at the end of the day, I want to feel good about me. Did I do me right? Not him. Was I okay with myself? Was I okay with my performance? Is my family okay? Is my husband okay? There are a lot of things that we … Fortunately, as a family we do get together a lot and we have to cope ahead.
We have plans. If he says, “This is what we’re going to do,” if he says that, this is what we’re going to do. There are times where I have to talk to him outside of these family events as well.
Audrea Fink:
We are talking about relationships within family or friends. Those tend to be really important internally. I can see how it might be easier to do this with family where … My dad and I are going to disagree, but he’s always going to be my father. He loves me, I love him. But what about in the workplace?
What if you work with someone who has very different views than you and they are loud and proud about them? They’re destructive or distracting or you just don’t feel comfortable. But I’m at work. I’m here to get my job done and I want to get along with my colleagues. But if I never see some of my colleagues again, they’re not my family, they’re not my friends. They’re people that I work with.
Clara Doctolero:
I think that there’s a couple of things here that my brain is going. One is, yes, sometimes we’ve got to know what our triggers are. What upsets you the most? So these comments are fine, these comments are not fine. Then you need to decide how do I want to be? What are my goals here? What are my values? At the end of the workday, do I feel good about myself?
And so, sometimes that means having a plan. Like if that happens, here’s what I’m going to say, or having a plan and say, “Hey, if I get revved up, do I need some coping skills?” Well, in my world we call it paced breathing. Do I need to exhale longer than my inhale to calm down?
By the way, sometimes you want to count in four beginning, count out six when you do pace breathing. Some folks, they want to count in four. Do you want to count out eight? To ensure that your exhale is longer than your inhale. With emotions, sometimes when your exhale is shorter, like (panting), that’s what anxiety sounds like, sometimes anger, often sometimes sadness as well. Long inhale, short exhale. Long inhale, short exhale. But if you go …
And it triggers your parasympathetic nervous system, the nervous system that relaxes you. It also turns out is that accumulation of paced breathing over time can shave anxiety years off your life because now your brain and your body know how to relax. Your fight or flight is activated when you have less exhale. Your parasympathetic nervous system is activated with exhaling.
Julie Holton:
So we all need to practice deep breathing during this election season. This podcast is coming out right before the big final day. Audrea, I appreciate what you just said about really focusing on the professional, because we can’t control sometimes our professional environment. Although, if it’s severe enough, then we have to ask ourselves those questions about am I in the right environment.
I do also want to just say that not everyone has that safety, comfort, and stability of knowing that family will always be there. So just recognizing, for those listeners who heard that and think, “Gosh, that might not be the situation I’m in,” we hear you. We see you. We know what that’s like, too.
Clara, I think that this feels so personal because we have so much at stake. For those of us that are really feeling this election season, here we are in the middle of a global pandemic. We have racial injustice at the height of what … For our generations, our younger generations, anything we’ve seen in our lifetimes. We have questions about our own financial stability. What’s going to happen with the rest of 2020 and beyond?
There are so many reasons why people are hurting. I’m wondering if I can ask you about those who are really acting out or lashing out when it comes to the election, do all of these things play into escalating their emotions? Because one of the things that really gets to me is I don’t mind the difference in opinions and I don’t mind a healthy debate or sharing of information, but as soon as you call me an idiot or as soon as you start dropping F-bombs about people like me, I’m immediately going to get defensive. But all I can think of is hurt people, hurt people.
So do you think that because we’re in this pandemic that is adding to what we’re all feeling right now with this election season?
Clara Doctolero:
Yes. I do think that part of what we’re seeing … If you remember, I’m going to rewind a little bit in your Psych 101 days, confirmation bias, where we look for things to confirm how we feel. Part of it is anger.
For me, personally, when I’m in the confirmation bias zone, no one can tell me I’m wrong. It’s a particular state of mind in which we look for things to confirm why we are right or why we feel this way. The interesting part about it is anger actually validates us because our confirmation bias zones does. It looks for things to confirm why we are so upset.
Julie Holton:
Wow! How many of us are walking around, or how many people do we see walking around, in that heightened state of confirmation bias? I wonder too, Clara, I mean segueing into … I wrote a blog a couple weeks ago about the media. I obviously have a very personal viewpoint about the media, having spent 12 years working in news.
But I think the way people consume certain types of media can really impact how we’re feeling and then how we’re treating other people. Is there a tactic we can use to minimize the inflammatory discourse so that we’re having this real and honest conversation instead of just spewing things at each other?
Clara Doctolero:
Yes. Again, I think we have to observe what our limits are. Sometimes we don’t know what our limits are until it’s in front of our face. With that, I would also say that you also have to watch what pokes at you. I don’t mind having a moment. It’s the extra that we look for. I know if I see this post and I read the comments that I’m going to be upset.
Audrea Fink:
Never read the comments.
Clara Doctolero:
Lo and behold, I’m correct. Four hours later, I’m still upset. Then it’s 2:00 in the morning. I have to wake up at 6:00 AM. I drag my feet the following day. There’s extra.
I think we as people have to ask ourselves, “At what point do I need to stop? At what point do I need to put … ?” For instance, maybe it’s your Facebook and you need to put in your library on your iPhone. It’s not on the face anymore. Maybe it’s, again, using things like paced breathing or something cold, or anything that triggers your parasympathetic nervous system. Maybe it’s exercise, for instance, to help cope with the news.
Maybe it’s a lot of using some meditation and mindfulness, being able to stay in the present, knowing what’s happening now and what’s taking you away with your emotions. Sometimes a lot of it is balancing it with positives.
Audrea Fink:
One thing that I’ve seen lately that has been a huge trigger for me is when someone posts, “If you believe X, unfollow me or unfriend me,” or whatever. Over half of the time, I agree with them, 90% percent of the time, because I have friends who think like me. But when I see that post, I think, “I don’t even want to be your friend anymore. If you’re that close-minded that you can’t talk to me if I believe something different than you, I don’t want this.”
I’ll get so worked up and then I’ll be like, “Why am I mad?” Just back away from the situation. Turn Facebook off, turn Instagram off, turn Twitter off. It’s hard, even when you share opinions, to participate with someone who refuses to have any connection with someone who’s different than them. That feels like a personal attack on me, even though it’s not a personal attack on me.
Clara Doctolero:
I think what you’re observing for yourself are your limits. There is a limit here where I know if I see this post, that would be if you will, a trigger. Or maybe not a hard trigger, but a soft trigger. And so, that’s where you can just like, “Do I want to engage in this?” Watch where your brain goes and how much you’re evaluating that as well.
Is that your extra? Is that someplace where I need to block? Is that someplace where I have to decide, “Hey, I know this is a soft trigger. I know it’s unhelpful. I’m going to put my phone in between my mattress and cook some dinner,” I don’t know, or do something different, I think is what I’m saying, that we all seem to have, hopefully, some control over.
Julie Holton:
Audrea, I’m with you, too. I see those posts and I’m like, “Who are you even commenting? All you’re doing is rallying the people who already agree with you. If you actually wanted to make a difference, shouldn’t you be saying something, using some words and communication tactics to actually talk to the people who might be undecided, who are on the fence, who you might be able to teach and coach and share your thoughts with?” The rest of it just is like, “You’re not helping anyone.”
Audrea Fink:
I just wrote about this in the last blog post because I read an article from a woman who was at the Westboro’s Baptist Church, the crazy church. She ended up having conversations on Twitter, of all places, that changed her mind, and she left the church. She’s now a strong supporter of human rights.
Julie Holton:
Wow!
Audrea Fink:
But it was because someone engaged in a dialogue with her and they didn’t put her down. They just said, “Tell me what you think. What about this? What about this?” For me, that really stuck in my brain because I thought that is how you change the hearts and minds of people, you engage in. But then I also know that not everyone can engage.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
I think it also sometimes depends on what the topic is, what the subject is. A friend of mine posted something on our WhatsApp group. A little crass so I will clean it up. But it’s two women, and one says, “See, we can agree to disagree,” which sounds quite reasonable to me. Then the other one says, “Yeah, on pizza toppings, not on racism.” Then there’s an epithet at the end.
I think that’s another part of … It depends on what it is. I mean I agree, the minute you lay down an ultimatum, and I haven’t even read what your ultimatum
Audrea Fink:
Right.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
… you’ve already come out. You make me want to unfollow you because I don’t even know what you’re about to say. But you’ve already put out this negative energy. You’ve already hurt your own cause, whatever that cause is. But then if your cause or if your statement … And, again, I use this one only because it’s the easiest go-to, safest one of proof when your point is Barack Obama was not born in the United States, I’m like I don’t know. I can’t …
So I come back to that. It’s like that’s just flat out false. I don’t agree with you. The only thing to prove that to you is to fly your booty to Hawaii and get the birth certificate. I don’t know what else to tell you.
Audrea Fink:
I would like to be volunteered to fly to Hawaii. I’m with you, Reischea. I agree with you. But also if Hawaii is an option …
Julie Holton:
Check it out, ladies.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
Check it out. But I wonder if that’s where some of this is sitting. I think I’ve said it before that I’m no longer concerned about allowing you to feel comfort with my discomfort. I get discomfort. I understand having to be in a space for uncomfortable discussions.
I think, Audrea, what you were talking about with the woman in the church, I think that is phenomenal because you know, for whoever was involved in those conversations, they all felt strongly on either side. But for someone to literally readjust their thought process to recognize, “Perhaps I was looking at this from not the right perspective,” that’s a big deal. That’s a very big deal. But it can be tough depending on what that topic is.
Clara Doctolero:
I think the toughest part also with political conversations is the sadness and the grief.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
Absolutely.
Clara Doctolero:
I’m with you there are a million and one examples that are understood as the truth and are the truth, and it’s sad when somebody I care about doesn’t see it, even if I care about you as a coworker or maybe somebody who lives four doors down from me. I still care about you, and it’s sad. I think the interesting part about talking about politics in this topic of this podcast, it actually turns out it’s a conversation about grief and sadness.
Audrea Fink:
What is the best way for us to avoid the conversation altogether? My go-to example is my brother and I just have wildly different political stances and worldviews. He is a wonderful human, but sometimes just hearing his thoughts is exhausting, even when he’s respectful, and he is. He is not trying to be rude or condescending. The sky is green to him and it’s blue to me. I have a couple of coworkers who are the same thing. Just talking to them, even when we agree, is exhausting. How do you disengage altogether respectfully when you’re just not feeling it?
Clara Doctolero:
I think we know the generals, our tones, our kindness. I think what helps us also get through it is there’s a skill called willing hands in DBT. Willing hands is when your palms are up on your lap. It’s the opposite of where your arms are crossed over your chest most of us are very comfortable with it.
Willing hands can be a very new behavior and can be uncomfortable from the beginning. When you sit like this with your palms up on your lap, it’s actually what people do when they meditate. It turns out there’s neurological research that supports it’s hard to stay angry at somebody in this position.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
You’re actually open.
Audrea Fink:
Oh, I’m using that for my next fight.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
Because you’re open.
Audrea Fink:
Yeah.
Clara Doctolero:
Yeah. And your mind is open. So I have a lot of clients in willing hands in traffic. I have a lot of clients doing willing hands even when they accept a compliment. That’s hard for some people. It’s hard for me, too. And so, willing hands, it’s a behavior, as on paper seems easy, but when we’re upset … And there’s all these other gunk. There’s history, there’s family stuff that all play all up in this cluster, that it’s easy to cross your arms over your chest and just …
Julie Holton:
Closed off.
Clara Doctolero:
Willing hands can be a solution. It actually comes from Thich Nhat Hanh. If you’re familiar with Thich Nhat Hanh, this mindfulness guru, he wrote a book about mindfulness and anger. This is one of the skills that he had suggested.
The other one that’s very similar, it’s called half smiling. So if you can practice with me for just a moment, half-smiling is where all the muscles in your face are relaxed. Your eyebrows, your forehead, your jaw just melt to the floor. Ever so imperceptibly, the corners of your mouth increase. You’re not yet smiling, but the corners of your mouth are upward. This is similar to…
Julie Holton:
I feel like laughing too, Audrea. I can’t help but … Like once you start-
Audrea Fink:
I want to smile the whole way. I’m like, “Keep it down. Keep it down.”
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
But is that the point? But is that the very point?
Julie Holton:
We were not laughing at you because-
Clara Doctolero:
Yeah.
Julie Holton:
… like, wow! My eyes are watering. That was actually powerful.
Clara Doctolero:
In my opinion, willing hands is a lot easier because you’re upset, you’re in the moment, there’s this cluster going on. I have to now think about relaxing my face and all these muscles. That takes a lot of practice. It is a misnomer, I think, that calling it smiling when you’re not actually supposed to be smiling, just the corners of your mouth are upward.
For me, I actually … On a complete side note, I do half-smiling when I need to fall asleep. It helps just relax and being open for my body to fall asleep. But willing hands, I do more behaviorally during the day, when somebody upsets me when I get annoyed, or somebody says something obviously that I disagree with.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
Let’s say we’re in a conversation, a problematic conversation. You’re getting deep into it, family, friends. My husband and I have had a couple of discussions and sometimes I have reverted to, “You’re just never going to understand. You just don’t get it. I’m done,” and I shut down. He gets frustrated with me, “You can’t just shut down.” Then I have a friend who she and her husband, they just don’t talk about certain things.
Now I can get how my mother and her bestie first cousin can do that because, one, they don’t live in the same house. They don’t see each other every single day. So it’s very easy for my mom to maneuver that relationship. But when you’re in the same home as someone, that’s going to be a little bit more difficult to maneuver.
So now you have to figure out how do you back away without damaging that relationship, or is the whole my mom’s version, “That’s interesting,” and shuttle to the other side, is that the answer?
Clara Doctolero:
So I actually think, what comes to my mind, and I should say it’s not a DBT skill, just one of these Clara-ism that pops up over the years, I call it a Band-Aid before the wound, where you state your intentions before you state what you need, or what you want to say. My intention is not to hurt you. My intention is for you to hear me.
Because when we are in a place commonly where we are to guess somebody’s intention, by and large, we commonly guess ill intentions of the individual we’re talking to. “This person’s out to get me.” “This person doesn’t understand.” “This person hates me.”
And so, if you state your intentions before you ask, then the person understands where you’re coming from. What you’re asking may sound completely ridiculous, and now I understand.
Audrea Fink:
I like that a lot. I think it’s very hard to have a conversation with someone when you assume ill intent. But it’s so easy to assume bad intent.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
Remember the saying, when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me.
Audrea Fink:
Let me just tell you guys, I’m an ass a lot of the time. It won’t surprise anyone.
Julie Holton:
Clara, my last question for you, I really want to address in two parts. Election day is next week and then election day will pass. One way or another half of the country’s going to be happy with the results, the other half is not, at least when it comes to a presidential election. There are lots of elections obviously taking place.
So I want to look at this in two parts because here we are still gearing up for that day, and then we have what follows that day. I know how I felt four years ago. I’ll just share that four years ago, I know we don’t really necessarily talk politics, we don’t typically share our individual viewpoints, but I’m going to share right now because I want to be honest in saying that I was depressed. I felt a low that I had not felt outside …
I mean there was nothing that had physically happened to me. People weren’t even saying bad things to me. This was one of the first times in my life that I felt a certain way, and I couldn’t quite pinpoint why. I have a feeling that those feelings, whether it’s depression or elation or everything in between, those feelings are coming, and those feelings are feelings that we’ve all been experiencing I think leading up to the election as well.
So what are some things that we can do? You’ve given us such great tactics so far. What are some things that we can do to really minimize the stress without disengaging or without letting this really overrun our lives? How do we start to deal with this on a personal level?
Clara Doctolero:
I think as cheesy as it sounds, we needed to do self-care yesterday. We need to get ourselves in a routine and accountable for what our self-care routines are. Our vulnerabilities with COVID, with the state of the world, with the politics, are high, meaning that any little pebble, we can explode. And so, the way that we care for ourselves matters.
I also think that we have to identify who are our support groups. Where’s our bubble? Ensure that you’re not ordering pizza from McDonald’s, that your support group actually does help support you, whatever that means.
I also think that we all have seemingly strong values and passions. I think that people who are more content with themselves and more content with their lives are people who align themselves with their values. That’s a behavior that we can identify, we can start doing now to be able to contribute to our passions and causes.
That can look as little as money donations, phone bankings, joining boards, volunteering. But they’re all behaviors that when we contribute, it turns out we actually feel good about ourselves as well.
Julie Holton:
I love that so much, volunteering, finding your tribe, which we all have a tribe right here with Think Tank of Three, and self-care. Clara, that is so important, I think, leading up to election day and beyond. We can start doing that right now. We can start with that self-care to really help us get through what’s coming.
Audrea Fink:
I also love how you said don’t be afraid to have uncomfortable conversations and be uncomfortable but go back to the value of the relationship. Is this a relationship I really want to keep engaging in? Is it one where, like your stepfather, that you just shut down, or like my brother, or is it one where you engage in that discussion because it’s valuable to have the ability to talk and learn where the other side is coming from?
I think it is so important for me and my values to be able to understand the opposition. I’m not going to change my mind, they’re not going to change my mind. Chances are I believe what I believe and I got there on my own, but I really want to understand.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
I think there’s some acceptance of the fact that we may not ever understand. You might be dealing with individuals that even when they try to explain where they’re coming from, even that explanation has you like, “What?” So maybe there’s an acceptance factor that falls in line where you just have to, for lack of a better term, here we come back to it again, agree to disagree even though what I’m disagreeing with is pretty major because I really just don’t get even where you’re … I’m trying. I’ve done that. I’m really trying to understand. If you guys listening could see my hand shaking right now.
Julie Holton:
Trying really hard to understand.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
Really trying hard to understand. And so, I’m going to move my hands to open and try to relax them, because even though they’re open, they are tense as all get-out. But there’s that part of it that your intention is to understand, and even with that intention, that may not happen either.
Clara Doctolero:
To loop this back with the relationship with my stepfather, we’ve had 30-plus years together, again, before his passing in 2018. I had to really think about what was it for me? I’m sorry, I’m getting teared up because I do believe that he taught me how to be a critical thinker, how not to be afraid, but it came out so aggressive and hurtful on his end, and yet I want to feel good about me. How do I understand this? How do I learn from it? How do I become a better person? Not about him or changing him or accepting that. None of that. It was about the relationship that I had with myself.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
That also speaks to how phenomenal you are, because that could have turned you in a completely different direction. But look what it did, Dr. Doctolero. Look what it did.
Clara Doctolero:
But it’s a journey. It’s a commitment to those values and acceptance that the journey’s not perfect. Those are hard days. Those were maybe even hard years.
Julie Holton:
Never once today have you said, “Well, you have to be wishy-washy in how you feel in order to preserve relationships.” No, that is not at all. Reischea, I love when you say this, you can never say this too much, when you say those words that people need to be uncomfortable with your discomfort, I mean that is what this is all about. We have to stay true to what we believe and find the best ways to listen and understand. If we can’t understand, then accept.
Clara Doctolero:
Yeah.
Audrea Fink:
This has been so insightful. Thank you so much for coming and talking to us today, Clara. This is so much fun. And also really hard, but fun. Before we go, though, we are collecting advice from successful women in our communities and we are sharing it in our Think Tank forum. So we have three rapid-fire questions for you.
Clara Doctolero:
Okay.
Audrea Fink:
Number one, is there a lesson that you’ve recently learned that you wish you had learned earlier in your career?
Clara Doctolero:
Yes, and here’s what I’ll say. It is to know who has power over you. I’ve had situations, particularly in my field, I was incredibly intimidated and posture syndrome to the max. One day, one of my great mentors … I was highly stressed and anxious, and working for other people to be happy and working for their approval. She sat me down one day and she says, “Do they have power over you? What’s the power that they would have over your career?” The fact of the matter is they did not. So when I let that go, I thrived.
Audrea Fink:
Amazing.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
Who you gave your power to.
Clara Doctolero:
Yes.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
All right. From lessons that you have learned, feeling from that, what advice would you offer any career woman?
Clara Doctolero:
I would say you really have to think about who’s your tribe? Who’s in your support team? I think for me, personally, there was, again, a lot of sadness and grief that it was not the people who I initially thought it would be, and they have changed over time. I think there are an acceptance and openness to that change.
Julie Holton:
In today’s professional setting, what do you think the most important skill is for women?
Clara Doctolero:
I think it’s being happy for other women who have what you want. I think-
Julie Holton:
Amen.
Audrea Fink:
Yes.
Julie Holton:
Sorry, I’ve just got to cheer for that one. Amen. Cheer each other on.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
Stop hating.
Clara Doctolero:
Yes.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
Start loving. Stop hating, start loving.
Clara Doctolero:
Yes.
Audrea Fink:
Women helping other women.
Clara Doctolero:
Yes.
Audrea Fink:
Being proud.
Clara Doctolero:
I think envy is a silent and sly emotion. It’s something that we don’t talk much about, and yet it comes out in very interesting ways. I feel as though is that if we can be loving and kind and wish people well, the Loving Kindness Meditation by Sharon Salzberg that I use a ton, about when your brain goes into … If I see somebody that has my age and has my dream car, what can my brain do? I wish them well. I use a Loving Kindness Meditation.
Audrea Fink:
I love that a lot. Can you share, Dr. Clara Doctolero … Oh man, I don’t know how you do that, Reischea. It just comes off of your tongue.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
Dr. Clara Doctolero.
Audrea Fink:
You’re so good. You’re so professional.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
This is what happens when you have Reischea Dionne Canidate-Kapasouris as a name. I had no choice, but to figure it all out.
Audrea Fink:
Yeah, you’re doing well. I’m going to take lessons. Dr. Clara, can you share the best way for our audience to connect to you if they have additional questions or business interests?
Clara Doctolero:
Emotionalintelligencetools.com. Also feel free to email me at Clara@emotionalintelligencetools.com. Also, my private practice for clinical psychology is at seattlepsychstudio.com. That’s psych, P-S-Y-C-H. Email me at Clara@seattlepyshstudio.com.
Audrea Fink:
For listeners outside of the Seattle area, do you work with people outside of this geographic area or only in Seattle?
Clara Doctolero:
Especially with my emotional intelligence EI Resources, EI Resources is a global … I can reach out globally.
Reischea Canidate-Kapasouris:
That’s so awesome. It has been so enlightening. Thank you so much, Dr. Clara, for joining us today. We really appreciate your insight and your time. That is going to do it for this episode of Think Tank of Three.
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