First comes love, then comes marriage. But wait! What about the parents who skip having the baby in the baby carriage?

Is it true what they say, that you don’t know ‘love’ until you’re a parent?

Are you selfish if you choose not to have children?

What about men and women who want to conceive a child, but are unable to do so naturally?

Or the women and men who want to have children, but haven’t yet found love?

There are many paths to choose from — and some paths are even chosen for us. In this episode, the Think Tank of Three talks with a guest who shares about her choice to be ‘childfree’.

Podcast Transcript

Julie Holton:

First comes love, then comes marriage. But wait, what about the parents choosing to skip the baby and the baby carriage? It’s time to smash the societal norms in today’s talk on Think Tank of Three.

Julie Holton:

Mom, dad, 2.5 kids, a dog and a white picket fence. It’s what everyone wants, right?

Audrea Fink:

Wrong! And there’s nothing wrong with not wanting what society has said we traditionally need to have.

Julie Holton:

I can’t wait to dive into this one. This is Julie Holton, here with my cohost Audrea Fink. We are your Think Tank of Three, and today we have so much to talk about with our guest. Stephanie Barnhill is an organizational consultant with mConnexions. She focuses on startups and businesses that need a boost when it comes to getting their ducks in a row, and she is pretty kick-ass if I may say so myself. But today we are actually ditching our titles, ignoring our job responsibilities, and just talking as women.

Audrea Fink:

And I am so excited for this topic. I have been waiting to dive into it since we started. This is literally one of the first topics we brainstormed when we were thinking about this podcast. So Stephanie, thank you for joining us today, we’re stoked.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Hi ladies, I’m so glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Julie Holton:

So let’s first point out who we are as women. So I, Julie, I’m a single woman, not married, not dating, no kids. I feel like we need to say that because of the topics we’re diving into today. Stephanie, you are happily married to your husband, you have three fur babies. By the way, I have two fur babies, I guess we should talk about fur babies.

Audrea Fink:

Yes.

Julie Holton:

Audrea, you are also happily married with some fur babies?

Audrea Fink:

I also think it needs to be said that I have 13 nephews and nieces with a 14th on the way.

Julie Holton:

Wow.

Audrea Fink:

So there is no lack of children in my life, and yet I am still pretty adamant about having a lack of children in my life, and we’ll dig into that as we go on. But thank you, Julie, that’s actually really important, I think, to talk about, why we’re coming from this stance and what shapes our perspective on it.

Julie Holton:

And my favorite title, those who know me know, it’s not entrepreneur or podcaster, it’s auntie. I have two nieces and a nephew who are my world, and I love that title.

Audrea Fink:

Definitely.

Julie Holton:

Stephanie, you and your husband have taken an interesting path towards deciding not to have children. Why don’t you first tell us a little bit about the path because this is something you have put so much thought into, and you have such an amazing explanation for the three types of people that you think there are in this world when it comes to people who want or don’t want to have children. So tell us first about this journey that you and your husband have taken?

Stephanie Barnhill:

Yeah, absolutely. It’s something I really enjoy talking about. My husband Seth and I, we had a bit of a different experience than most people do when we discovered that we wanted to be a child-free family. I do want to clarify, child-free might be a term that you all have heard before. It’s kind of a newer term that’s been coined. Typically people, we would be called childless, we’re childless, we’re a childless couple, and that kind of seemed to be a little negative sounding. We were less children even though that was something that we personally have chosen. So child-free is the new kind of term that is being used and so that’s the term that I will use.

Julie Holton:

Because childless makes it sound like you’re missing something.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Exactly.

Julie Holton:

But I don’t feel like you’re missing anything. This is the point.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Right, absolutely. It’s something that we have chosen, and not because it’s better or worse than another choice, it’s just because it’s the desire of our hearts. So we discovered that a little later. I will say briefly growing up the idea of having a baby was terrifying to me, it was something that just, it did not sound good, it was not something that I was interested in. But I always assumed growing up that that would change, once I found my life and I was in a great relationship and that that was something that would change.

Audrea Fink:

And part of the reason you think that is because they tell you well just wait till you meet your person and then suddenly, magically you’ll feel different.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Right. Absolutely. It was like, I didn’t have a lot of role models of people that didn’t have children. I had a lot of role models that were wonderful parents, of course including my own, but I didn’t see a lot of adults that didn’t have children, and it was almost invoked in me this kind of like oh I feel bad for them, I feel sorry for them, why don’t they have children? It was kind of that programming that I didn’t quite understand.

Stephanie Barnhill:

I think it took learning later in life that that was actually the road I was choosing to take and that my husband was choosing to take for me to really challenge that programming, challenge those ideas and those thoughts that I had my whole life that didn’t come from any one person, it just kind of came from society at large, I believe. Once I was able to come to terms with it and understand that that’s okay, and just because we’re child-free doesn’t mean we’re fun free or we’re happy free or we’re love free, it means that we’ve chosen a path that, for us, means that we can experience the life that we want. We’re living our best life, in current terms.

Stephanie Barnhill:

We’ve been married for a while and my husband and I had both talked about when we were just dating that we didn’t know if being parents was in the cards for us or not. We thought probably but we didn’t really know and we were both together on that, which I’m so grateful for. It’s why we knew that we could be married because we kind of knew we were on this together and that we were open.

Stephanie Barnhill:

It occurred to us after a few years of marriage that you know, neither of us really desire a baby but we thought adopting a child, adopting an older child who’s waiting in foster care, which is something that is very important to us, supporting children in care, that that’s something that we might want to do. So we actually went on that journey, we went through all of the foster processing and certifications, all of those things that you do to become foster parents or adoptive parents through foster care, and we actually were looking at bios, profiles of children and considering our options and looking at what kind of situation would be best for us and for the child that we bring into our lives.

Stephanie Barnhill:

It was this beautiful, for me, divine intervention when I got that call that was asking us to become foster parents. We were not looking at fostering at the time, just adoption, and we got to foster the most… we got to be short-term parents for the most incredible, incredible young men, little boys that were brothers that were, at the time, six and eight years old, and it was… we fell in love with them instantly, we knew that these boys were wonderful and special and we were hoping that they would always be part of our family but we soon realized that being a parent, for both my husband and I, did not feel right. And it had nothing to do with these boys, I mean fostering brings all kinds of challenges, let me tell you. I’m not saying that there weren’t great challenges and-

Julie Holton:

It was a full-time job, right?

Stephanie Barnhill:

Oh absolutely.

Julie Holton:

I mean we’re talking medical appointments, mental health, physical health.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Yes. Attorney visits.

Julie Holton:

Attorney visits, yes.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Fostering is a beautiful experience but can also be a very challenging and can have a lot of negative aspects as well, it’s the whole gamut. For us, we definitely experienced far more positive than anything else, but it was being in a parental role for us, that made Seth and I really think about is this right for us? Is this the desire of our heart?

Stephanie Barnhill:

Not that being an auntie or uncle, which we are now to the boys, thank goodness, we’re so grateful to be part of their extended family because they are in their amazing forever home now with family, with their own actually biological family. But for us it was understanding this role as parent doesn’t feel right. It feels like we’re in a jacket 10 sizes too small. It doesn’t feel like this was the role that we are meant to play for ourselves, for others, for our community. That was what helped us really start to think about what it is we saw for our lives, both individually and as a couple and as a family, and we came to the realization that wow we actually don’t desire to be parents, we actually desire to be an auntie and uncle for children, for our friends’ children, for the boys that we fostered, and just at large. I mean, it’s a beautiful role that I think sometimes doesn’t get the respect that it deserves because-

Audrea Fink:

I agree.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Right? Because there are so many other ways to be involved in a child’s life without being a mom and dad, that’s obviously, hugely important and wonderful, but there are other ways to be involved in your community as well.

Audrea Fink:

Agreed.

Julie Holton:

Absolutely. We are all aunties here, and so we’re all a little biased. Let’s speak for a moment the position of the “other” adults, the quote unquote “other” adults in children’s lives is such an important role. We all know that parents have a huge job, and there is a point where their influence needs to be supported by the other adults who are in their children’s lives. My sister tells me time and time again what an important role it is that I play in her kids’ lives, and as aunts we don’t always see it because we’re the fun aunts, we’re taking them to do these great things.

Julie Holton:

But even in those little moments, we are teaching them lessons that are supporting what the other adults in their lives are teaching them, their parents, their teachers. And so shout out to all the aunts and uncles out there because you are playing a very important role in children’s lives.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Absolutely.

Audrea Fink:

And so frequently that role of the auntie and uncle, can really be a safe space, it can be an alternative place where you can be honest and not worry about your parents because you’re not going to get in trouble. I remember growing up having a handful of aunts and uncles who I just adored, I idolized. When we would go to visit or they would come over, I wanted to spend so much time with them. Now I get to be that person for my nephews and nieces, and I love them and they love me, and we can play and be fun and I can be that positive person who yes, reinforces some of the behaviors their parents want, and absolutely help with building them up, the value system that their parents want, but also have that ability to be a person who is just, is fun and safe, and is going to love them no matter what.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Absolutely. Something that spoke to me, it actually kind of changed my life, it gave me a little bit of validation and some clarity on things. There was an interview with Elizabeth Gilbert, of course the writer of books like Committed and Eat, Pray, Love. She was in an interview with Oprah and she was speaking about motherhood. She’s been, of course, all over the world interviewing women and getting to know women all around the world. She said that she believes that women tend to fall in one of three camps. There’s the mommy camp, there’s the auntie camp, or as Elizabeth Gilbert called it, the auntie brigade, and the camp of women that shouldn’t be within 10 feet of a child. And that’s it’s really important-

Audrea Fink:

I love it.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Right? It’s true. She says it’s really important to figure out which camp you belong in and to honor that. There are some women that are like I want to be a mom, it is part of my purpose, it is part of the experience I want to have, that is for me. So yes, mommies out there-

Julie Holton:

[crosstalk 00:10:50] I have known since I was a little girl I want to be a mom some day.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Yes.

Julie Holton:

Here I am at 37 years old and I am not married, I do not have kids yet, but I still am in that camp and I know it will happen, and we’ll talk about that a little more later, but yes, okay, so I am in that camp.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Yes, the mommy camp. And it’s a beautiful camp, and it’s one of those, I believe, if you know that you are intended to be a mother, work on making that happen. It is not always easy. I’m not saying that to be insensitive, because for some women it takes a long time and it takes thinking outside of traditional ways of becoming a parent to make that happen for you, but that is the desire of your heart, that is the camp you belong in, that is where you’ve got to be.

Stephanie Barnhill:

At least at some point, on your terms, in your time. But being in that camp is so important because it will bring that fulfillment that you know where the desire in your heart lives. And for the auntie camp, and that’s of course me, and that is… it might be a biological aunt, it might be an aunt through a friend or through other family, it might be a teacher.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Maybe you’re a teacher and you’re in the auntie camp because you are helping raise these children, maybe you’re a coach, maybe you are in a church or place of worship that you can be part of children’s lives because it’s important to you, you want that, you feel like you have a place in that role within the community or within your family, and so that auntie camp is vital.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Then there is a camp of women, they shouldn’t be within 10 feet of a child and it’s because they don’t want to be. That is something that you really are… I’m hearing more and more stories of that, these women that say, “Listen, yeah, I’m child-free, but I don’t want to be around children. I shouldn’t have to say, ‘Oh I also love children,’ if that’s to how you feel.” If you don’t want to be around children, if you don’t enjoy being around children, then it is okay. Women that feel that way, listen, you are helping your scene and it doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with you or the way that you feel, it just means that that’s not in your heart. It doesn’t work for you on whatever level that means, whether that’s just… it brings you anxiety or discomfort to be around children or to entertain children, that is okay, and it is okay that you-

Julie Holton:

Let’s make that crystal clear. No matter what camp you are in, the mommy camp, the auntie camp, the no children don’t want any children camp. Whatever camp you decide to be in, that is the camp you are meant to be in. It is perfectly okay to be in any one of those and to own it.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Yes.

Julie Holton:

We were talking a little bit before we started recording and I want to go back to this talk that we were all having about what society says we should want.

Audrea Fink:

The stigma.

Julie Holton:

The stigma. And in the judgments that get made, and especially in this social media world, the judgments that we see being made online of pitting one camp against the other. Can we just, let’s just recognize this for a minute, let’s call it what it is so that we can put an end to it.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Yes, absolutely. It’s alive and no worries. I think that my personal point of view is that when we get so judgmental for someone else for having kids or not having kids or not wanting to be around children, that has less to do with them than it does with our own stuff, the stuff inside. Maybe it’s our insecurities, maybe it’s our programming, maybe it’s our close mindedness, maybe it’s our fears, maybe it’s our anxieties. But there’s something about our own stuff and not wanting to deal with it, so instead we shine that light on other people to try to challenge their point of view or their lifestyle, which really only hurts all of us. It keeps us disconnected and polarized, and it keeps us from really understanding that we can be who we are, we can love the choices that we make, and we can also love people that make different choices because we should be able to live and let live.

Audrea Fink:

So I think there’s two big… Well, maybe there’s three big judgments that I see out there. So one is that if you don’t have kids and you don’t want kids, and that’s not your path forward, then you’re selfish. If you do want kids but you’re single, you better hurry it up, girl.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Yes.

Audrea Fink:

Or if you have kids and you want them, why aren’t you more of a feminist? Why don’t you want also to have these other things and sort of normalize it and also you have to be thrilled with being a mother all the time? I’m sure there’s more judgments out there but I see a lot of them falling into these three buckets of you’re either not good enough because you’re not there yet, you’re not good enough because you don’t want it, or you’re not good enough because you don’t want it the right way.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Yes, oh my gosh. 100%. We see that every day, everywhere. It’s something that is so entrenched in our culture and our society that women truly are measured… and I’m not trying to say that men aren’t judged as well, but women are measured, our womanhood, our femininity, our worth is often judged by if we are a mom or not, if we can be a mom or not, and if we choose to be a mom or not. And that is incredibly-

Audrea Fink:

I’m going to go ahead and say men aren’t judged that way.

Julie Holton:

No, they really aren’t.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Not to that level.

Audrea Fink:

Right. And this is definitely not to shame men because I think men have their own struggles with kids and not kids, but I don’t think men are held to the same standards. No one asks a man how do you work and parent? How do you do it all? They just assume you’re the breadwinner, you go home, your wife takes care of things, right? And there’s not the expectation of equal division of labor with men the same way there is with women, which I think comes back to this stigma with women. And again, not to shame men, not that they don’t have their own things, but I feel like this is very much something that we own in ways that others don’t.

Julie Holton:

I completely agree. A neighbor the other day said to me, “Oh, you better get on it. If you want to have kids and you’re still single,” he told me the clock is ticking. One, as if I don’t already know that, right? And not because society says I need to have kids by a certain point in my life, but mother nature does, and also let’s just face it, we want what we want when we want it, so why would I want to keep waiting, right? But for the record, I’m perfectly okay waiting, obviously, for the right time for me to have kids. And if that does or does not happen, I’ll deal with it then, but I don’t need a man telling me that the clock is ticking, which he did.

Julie Holton:

But I will also say this, if I was a man, that would not have even come to his mind to tell me that the clock is ticking and I better hurry up. So why the double standard? And why the judgment?

Stephanie Barnhill:

Absolutely. And I feel like it’s incredibly destructive when we as women have to question our worth based on our abilities or interest in becoming a mother or becoming a parent. It’s really destructive, it eats at what we feel we should be doing, what our purpose is, or what our purpose isn’t. It makes us question ourselves, our bodies, our beliefs, and it’s really damaging. And instead, if we could take the pressure off, if we could just encourage women to be mothers or not be mothers or to become a mother in a way that is best for them, and there are many ways to become a mother. Then we could just learn, we could hopefully learn to and appreciate women for who they are regardless of if they’re a parent or not.

Julie Holton:

Absolutely.

Audrea Fink:

So I have not really ever wanted kids. I think maybe when I was in elementary school and I didn’t know that there were options I was like oh I’ll have babies by the time I’m 22, because that’s what my mom did, right? And then at 22 I was like oh, hard no, hard pass. My husband and I got together, and we discussed potential because he was like, “I really want kids and you should at least have one,” and I managed to change his mind now, the 14 nephews and nieces helps.

Audrea Fink:

I had the honor and the true joy of holding his sister’s leg when she gave birth to her first child, and it was a truly miraculous moment. I think when people say miracle, I experienced that moment, it was beautiful, and horrible. And at the end of it I really felt positive it wasn’t for me. It was a moment I will always be grateful I got to have, it was like from a biological standpoint, like the coolest thing, women’s bodies are so [inaudible 00:19:15]. And it’s not for me.

Audrea Fink:

Fast forward to now, my husband and I are like, okay maybe in five years… I’m 38 now. We talked about, okay, maybe we look into adoption or fostering. My husband doesn’t think he can foster because he doesn’t think he could give a kid back. He thinks once you come into his home you’ll be his. So that leaves us with either making this decision about a person for the rest of their lives or our lives, or saying okay why don’t we instead invest in the 14 children who already know and love us? And those 14 include my brother’s kids, his sister’s kids, and then a handful of our friends who we’re really close with who call us auntie and uncle.

Audrea Fink:

And why does that make me selfish? It doesn’t. In fact, you could say I’m probably part of the reason any of those kids will get to go to college, right? It’s going to be my money. Their parents don’t have it because they’re raising the children. Right?

Stephanie Barnhill:

Absolutely. And you’re contributing to forming those kids and who they’re becoming and how they view this world, and even learning the fact that they can choose whether or not they want to have kids some day. A really beautiful thing. It really is. And I love that you brought up the term selfish because as I’m sure you hear a lot as well, that term gets played a lot when you put out there that you don’t want to have children. It’s seen almost immediately as wow, that’s kind of selfish, that’s kind of self-centered.

Stephanie Barnhill:

And to me, that’s such an interesting response because it’s just a desire either you have or you don’t have. It’s not like well… And you hear people say well there are lots of benefits to not having children, right? They’re of course like on the superficial side, oh this, you’ll save money here, you’ll do this, you’ll do that. But the reality is is that the decision comes from a much deeper place. The decision comes from I just don’t desire that role. Or I do so desire that role.

Stephanie Barnhill:

And I think at the end of the day, if you just don’t desire that role, it doesn’t make you selfish, it’s just not part of what you want for your life. That also means that people that are parents can’t be selfish, and that’s not true. All of us are selfish on some level, right? But it doesn’t mean that it plays a role in our decision making, right? At least not in this position.

Audrea Fink:

I would flip that narrative too. If you don’t really want kids and you have them, what kind of parent does that make you? Listen, my mother loves me, absolutely loves me, but I truly believe that my mom never really wanted to be a mom. She felt like she was supposed to do it, she felt like it was the path that she wanted to go down, she loved her children. But I don’t think if she was asked, like is this the choice you want to make, she would have said yes. I she would have said no, I don’t know what I’m doing there and I don’t really particularly feel like it’s my strength, and I don’t want to go that route.

Audrea Fink:

So, which is worse, right? Her saying, “You know, this isn’t the decision for me,” or having three kids where she’s like I don’t know what the heck do to with these folks. They’re little and they’re needy and I don’t want to. And I think that that, just because it’s the norm doesn’t make it better. I would not be a great mother because it’s not what is in my heart. I am an absolutely amazing auntie because I love doing it. And why is that selfish? In fact, why is that not considering what this future kid may or may not get from me?

Julie Holton:

It’s the opposite of selfish. Let’s call it what it really is, it’s the opposite of selfish. And it’s so interesting because I want to talk about how, if we have our big wish for changing the world, how do we get women to support each other? How do we get society to support women and men in whatever decision they make?

Julie Holton:

I want to share a little story because this is just on my heart today. My sister and I are like the yin and the yang of this conversation, because my sister got married at 21, and she had her first child by 22. She now has three beautiful kids. She, at age 30, is in nursing school, and she’s about to graduate from nursing school and I look at her and I see superwoman because here is this young woman who has it all and does it all, she is a wife and a mom and a student who’s about to have this amazing career.

Julie Holton:

She looks at herself and she sees a new graduate who’s 30 years old, when most graduates are younger than that. So she sees the opposite of all of these things. And I look at her and I think wow, you have it all. She looks at me and she thinks, wow, no, you have it all. You graduated college and you went out and pursued your dreams and you have this amazing award winning career and now you have your own business and you’ve put your career first and you’ve put yourself first, and it’s okay that you’ve waited to have a family because you did you.

Julie Holton:

So we are just like the opposites, right? I look at her and she has everything, and she looks at me and I have everything. So it’s really funny… Actually it’s really good, because we can support each other and remind each other no no no, you have exactly what you want. You have what you have pursued.

Julie Holton:

But it’s interesting, she… her son just had the mother/son dance at school and my sister, because she’s in nursing school, had clinicals that day and you can’t miss clinicals.

Audrea Fink:

You can’t miss them.

Julie Holton:

Can’t miss them. So as soon as she told her son, “I’m sorry, I can’t take you to your dance.” Her six year old said, “Okay, well can Aunt Julie take me?” So for me, you can imagine I’m so excited, my nephew [crosstalk 00:24:44] if I can take him to the mother/son dance. The next thing you know, his best friend, his mom had just a very traumatic time in her family right now and she had to be at the bedside of her grandmother, who is passing away. So next thing you know, I get asked can you take this little boy as well?

Julie Holton:

And I’m thinking oh my gosh, my day is made, I’ve got these two cutie pies who are going to be my dates, I can’t imagine a better Friday night. To these boys, it dawned on me as I’m driving them to dinner, of course I had to take them to dinner before the dance and we’re driving.

Audrea Fink:

Of course.

Julie Holton:

They’re in the backseat and best friends, just so excited, bouncing off the walls of the car, excited to get to this dance. And they’re kind of arguing with each other first, oh it’s the mom/son dance. And the other says, “No, it’s the mother/son dance.” No, mom, no, mother. So then I jump in and I say, “Well I’m not your mom or your mother.” They’re like, “Oh, well it’s the aunt/son dance.” So then they’re laughing about that. I said, “Well, you’re not my son so maybe it’s the auntie/cutie patootie dance.” So then they were all excited like oh we’re renaming the dance. My niece is calling it the Aunt Julie dance.

Julie Holton:

So my point being that they went to this dance, these six year olds, and never once thought twice about who had taken them to the dance. They’re so excited to be there and playing with their friends, and I’m sure some boys were there with their moms and some were there with grandmas and maybe some aunties. To them it’s all about who’s raising them, who’s uplifting them, who’s inspiring them and motivating them and loving them. And it takes all of us, so how can we all as adults better support each other? Because those little boys saw the support they were getting, why can’t we see it? What do we need to do to change the adults in our lives?

Audrea Fink:

So there is this quote I’ve heard, and I can’t tell you who it is so I’m definitely plagiarizing it, stealing it, probably messing it up. But comparison is the thief of joy. So I think one of the ways we have to look at how do we hold other women up, in a lot of ways is to stop the comparisons. Julie, one of the stats that you were talking to us about before this call was that one in five women enter menopause without children, and they’ve never had them, they’ve never adopted them, they’ve never fostered them. One in five.

Audrea Fink:

That’s a pretty large number, and that’s sort of normalizing, right? We need to think about the fact that not having children is not that different, odd, bizarre, weird. It’s a pretty decent percentage of the US. And if we’re comparing what we have to other people, then we’re never going to be happy with what we have. One of the things I hate more than anything is when I see those names on Facebook, and you two both know about this, that says you don’t know what tired is until you have a toddler or a two and a half year old or children or whatever.

Audrea Fink:

I know what tired is, I promise you. Don’t punish me or compare your level of exhaustion to mine, because one, it makes me mad, and two, it doesn’t serve you, right? It’s not lifting you up, it’s not making you feel better, it’s not making me feel better. Let’s stop comparing and trying to either one-up each other or comparing and feeling bad because we don’t have it. Julie, your sister, she has it all, and so do you, and so do I, and so does Stephanie.

Julie Holton:

Amen, mic drop right there.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Absolutely. And it’s funny because another… Funny not funny. It’s interesting that I’ve heard that message quite a bit. Not personally. I do want to say very quickly that even though all of our friends and family know that this is to our choice to be child-free, we are very, very fortunate and grateful that we have never had anyone come to us with anything other than positivity and support. So that is not the case for the majority from what I hear of child-free families. Usually there is a lot of skepticism, shame, guilt trips, questioning, telling people oh you’ll probably change your mind.

Stephanie Barnhill:

So all of these other things that people encounter, we’re very fortunate that is not something we personally have encountered, but the messages are out there. The one that I think is so damaging is you don’t know love until you’re a parent, in addition to. That, to me, I don’t know what the bond… There are lots of different kinds of love. Love is just love, right? So I know what love means, no I don’t know what it feels like to love my child. That must be a beautiful bond and experience that I won’t have and I don’t desire to have, but it doesn’t mean that I don’t know love.

Stephanie Barnhill:

I think we have to watch our words sometimes, both people that are child-free and people that are parents. We have to watch our words sometimes and make sure that we’re really honoring each other from the way that we communicate and the things that we say, because it’s very easy to say things that might be hurtful. Even if they’re not intended that way, which I don’t think they usually are, but nonetheless we don’t want to tear anybody down by trying to build ourselves up or by trying to share our own experience.

Julie Holton:

Words are powerful. Absolutely. And I would love to hear from our listeners, whether it’s this debate over whether to have children or not, and I know that many of our listeners have, as Stephanie mentioned earlier, want to be parents but maybe are taking different routes in order to become parents, if there are fertility issues or other issues that you face. But what are some other obstacles that you face? What are some other challenges? What are some other judgments that get made? We’d love to hear from you and we’d love to let you know that we see you and we hear you and we acknowledge what you’re going through.

Stephanie Barnhill:

I would love to chime in super quick on that. I have quite a few friends that have large families, they’ve got several children, three, four, or more children. It’s so unfortunate talking with them sometimes, they’ll say things that they experience. Like one of my friends said that when she’s with her children, she’ll be in the store and people will give her dirty looks because she has four children or more children, and she’ll get dirty looks, and they’ll get snide remarks and side eye, like why do you have so many children and things like that? That is not okay. Like oh my goodness.

Stephanie Barnhill:

So we judge people that don’t have children and then we judge you if you have too many children? We need to stop the judgment at all. So anyway, just to chime in, I have friends that are parents, well apparently in their eyes they’re like apparently we have too many kids for people to be okay with or to support us on, and that is not okay.

Julie Holton:

No, none of that is okay.

Audrea Fink:

We also, I think, judge women who want to have kids but can’t. So I have a good friend right now who’s going through in vitro, through IVF, and she struggles with that whole I have a body that is not going to make babies, and why is that? What have I done, what did I do wrong, why does society think she’s just not good enough?

Audrea Fink:

And really it’s just happenstance. Like, I wish I could give her my healthy ovaries and uterus, that would be lovely. I’m not using them, don’t need them. What we are hearing and what we’re talking about is just this overall judgment that we have on women, right? You are either the pregnant goddess, or the mom who can’t keep her kids under control, or the selfish spinster, or a woman who’s maybe just not trying hard enough.

Audrea Fink:

It all comes down to how we value women in our society, how we value those women’s roles, and then in some ways how we devalue ourselves. Stephanie, like you I’m really lucky, my parents have never, ever pushed me to have kids. Colby’s parents, once they… Colby’s my husband, once they heard that we weren’t going to have kids, they were fine with it, and they’re wonderful. And I’m truly blessed, I love my in-laws, they’re fantastic. And we don’t get any pressure.

Audrea Fink:

But so many women do. I have a good friend who is single and does not want children, and maybe doesn’t ever want to stop being single. And she gets so much crap for it, and I think part of how we fix this is to start standing up for other women when we hear it, to start encouraging and supporting women. If you choose to be Susie Homemaker, great, good for you, I hope it brings you join. If you choose to have a large family, great, good for you, I hope it brings you joy. If you choose to not, great, I hope it brings you joy. If you’re struggling because you want it and you can’t have it, I hope you get what brings you joy. I think we have to start normalizing that the choice that brings you joy is the choice that is the valuable choice.

Julie Holton:

Absolutely. I have a question for both of you. Typically, as we wrap up our podcast, we ask our guest to share some insight with our Think Tank forum, but I want to switch things up a little bit today, and for both of you as women who have chosen not to have children, I’d love to hear from each of you the advice that you would have offered your younger self maybe 10 years ago when you were going through this process of deciding that this was going to be the right choice for you, what did you need to hear them to give yourself that permission to make this choice with confidence? Stephanie, let’s start with you.

Stephanie Barnhill:

You know, I think 10 years ago I was newly married and we were holding off on that decision, but what I wish I would have known then was… not necessarily what decision I was going to make, because I am grateful, so incredibly grateful for the journey that I went on discovering that I don’t want to be a parent, but I wish I had a healthier perspective on what a child-free life could look like back then.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Because I didn’t have the experiences that I have now, I didn’t understand that for me, a joyful life and a fulfilled life means not having children versus having children. I couldn’t live the life that I have now, I wouldn’t have the fulfillment and the joy and the purpose that I have now if I would have become a parent, and that’s only because it’s not the desire of my heart. I would be living a life that wasn’t really true to what I feel like my calling is and my purpose in this life is.

Stephanie Barnhill:

So I think I would have appreciated some other role models. Understanding now, I have them, I see couples that are child-free that are thriving but I didn’t see a lot of that before. So I think I would have told myself that hey, if you decide to not have children, you can still be very fulfilled and happy and joyful and purposeful and have all of the things you want in life even if you choose to not have children. For some of us that means not having children if that’s for us.

Stephanie Barnhill:

So I think that would have been really nice. I want to say that my mom was always delighted to be a mother. My mom and I have a great relationship but she has told me for many, many years that listen, don’t ever feel like you have to have kids for me. If I’m not a grandma, I’m okay. She’s always made that very clear. Not steering me away from becoming a parent by any means but just letting me know hey, if you ever decide that you don’t want to have kids, that’s great. And if you decide to have kids, that’s great. Just make the choice that you want to make and just know I will support you either way. And that is one of the greatest gifts of all.

Audrea Fink:

I agree. So I think for me I would actually have to go back further than 10 years. Colby and I are coming up on our 10 year anniversary this year, so I’m like, 10 years ago this decision was made. But I think I would go back a little further. Prior to meeting and dating Colby, I was with another guy who was my boyfriend for however long, and he really wanted kids and I didn’t think I wanted them. I actually knew I didn’t want them, but I wanted him and that came with a stipulation.

Audrea Fink:

If I could go back I would tell myself that I could have more if I was not willing to settle for less. The pushing yourself into a space because someone else wants it is the problem, and I think a lot about had I stayed with this person I probably would have ended up really similar to my mom. Again, she was a good mom, I love my mom, we have a great relationship, right? But I would have had children because somebody else wanted them, I would have had children because it would have been expected. I would not have actively been choosing to have children because I had any desire for it.

Audrea Fink:

So I think I would go back and say don’t settle for what doesn’t feel right. It’s okay to wait. And one of the things that I think, Julie, about your situation where you want to have kids and you’re just not there yet, every time I hear you talk about that, internally I’m just cheering for you because what an amazing choice to be able to say I know I will get this, I will get this when the time comes, I’ll figure it out, if I don’t physically birth them because I’m 45, fine, but I’ll figure it out because I’m going to be a mom and you’re going to be a great mom. And kudos to you for waiting until it’s what works for you, versus being pushed into it because someone else has an expectation.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Absolutely.

Julie Holton:

Thank you. Yeah, ladies, thank you. I think the lesson here for everyone listening, because I’m sure we have people listening from every single angle and even women listening who don’t know if they want to have kids or still deciding that aspect of their lives, or maybe another aspect of their lives where society says do this but they’re feeling pulled in another direction. The lesson here is look inside of yourself, don’t settle for anything less than what you feel is right for you, and stand strong and find your tribe that will support you in that because all of us are very fortunate that we have parents who have loved and supported us through these decisions.

Julie Holton:

My parents have never put any pressure on me to have kids, to get married. All of that is pressure I put on myself. So it’s not coming from them. Find your tribe, find your people who are going to support you and help you stand strong for what is right for you.

Stephanie Barnhill:

Absolutely. And just to add in there, in addition, as someone who doesn’t want to have children, I am so excited and encouraged by my friends that do have children or do want to have children. Just because we don’t want something ourselves or just because we do want something ourselves, it doesn’t mean that we can’t be excited or encouraging or supportive of our friends that make a different choice, right?

Stephanie Barnhill:

Throughout the years when my friends are like hey we’re working on getting pregnant or we are pregnant or we’re adopting, it’s like a party, I’m so excited. And it doesn’t mean that… I can still be excited even though I don’t have that desire, but again, that’s just… it’s just excitement and being joyful for your friends, for the people that you love that are doing these wonderful and exciting things for themselves and for their lives, and again, with Julie you know it’s going to happen and you’re excited about it and you’re ready for it.

Stephanie Barnhill:

We are so excited for you and I think that that’s just part of being a sisterhood and being… I mean, not only just a kind and good person, to be encouraging of people that you love, but it’s also sisterhood. It’s saying you know what, I don’t have to fully identify with every feeling you’ve ever felt in order to be encouraging and supportive of you. I can just do it because I love you and because I’m excited for the things that you want in your life, and I want to help you get there or feel supported and encouraged enough to get there so we can all live the life that we want to live.

Audrea Fink:

Absolutely. So women, lift each other up, don’t judge, don’t compare. Thank you Stephanie. Can you share the best way for our audience to connect with you if they have additional questions or business interests or just want to get to know you and your child-free life?

Stephanie Barnhill:

Absolutely. Thank you, yes. My email is probably the very best way, and that is Stephanie, S-T-E-P-H-A-N-I-E, @mconnexions.com, that’s M-C-O-N-N-E-X-I-O-N-S, .com; or check out our website at mconnexions.com.

Julie Holton:

That is all for this episode of Think Tank of Three, we will see you next time.